I am liberal on some things and conservative on others. Do they have a right to build there? Yes they do. Is it insensitive? Probably, but also look around the neighborhood and see the other businesses and it is really hard to say that the area is any more respectful of Ground Zero. There are extremists in every group and we don’t often hear of those persons in the groups with greater understanding and a willingness to try to get along despite all the differences that may be.

Did the Pastor in Florida have a right to burn the Koran? Yes he does. Would it have been insensitive. Yes, but our constitution in the U.S. protects such an action as free speech.

We’re all on this Earth together. All faiths, all manner of beliefs from Liberal to Conservative, etc. We are not all going to have our way, so we need to figure out how to coexist. Agree to disagree and work within the process to change peacefully, not through violence.

Maybe I have a naive view, but try first, war only if really necessary, how can we learn and live together.

I don’t even see this as a religious rights issue. I’m a libertarian, so in most cases I just prefer if the government butts out. In the case of the mosque, if they have the money to buy the property and are within the zoning rights, then they have the right to do whatever they want with it. Is it a little insensitive, MAYBE. Does it matter one bit legally speaking, not at all.

And if you look at it from their point of view, they had already gone through much of the process before all the protests erupted. They had already spent (probably) millions of dollars getting architects to design the building, getting the building approved through the city, etc. etc.. So when people say, “why don’t they just move it,” well, it’s not that easy. They’ve already invested heavily into this property, and the government telling them to move would be the same as taking that money away from them. People have the right to voice their opinions against their building, the fact is that they’ve invested in it already and had been getting the green-light from the local government for quite a while before it became an issue, so they have every legal property right to build it, and private property rights are pretty important to me, the right, and a capitalist society.

Regarding the man burning the Quo’ran. Did he have the right to burn the Quo’ran, absoloutly. Do we all have the right to tell him he’s a fricken idiot and plead with him to stop, absoloutly. Society telling you you’re an idiot is the check on free speech. If you’re willing to weather the criticism, you can go right ahead. If you’re right, then in the end, you will be vindicated. But since the man hadn’t invested millions of dollars in buying this one Quo’ran and been led to believe that his millions of dollars were being well and legally spent, I don’t really see them as comparable situations.

thoughtful responses — and it would be great to hear from arab members of the speedo community……

But there was a mosque within the World Trade Center at the time of the attacks…it was on the 17th floor of bldg. # 2. Furthermore, more than 100 Muslims perished alongside all the others. Are they less dead because they were Muslims? Do their families feel less pain?
I should think that the analogy of having a Christian church or a gay bar in one of the backward countries that has a Muslim theocracy is a bad one; because what that implies is that we should be as bad as they are…as intolerant as they are.
I have no use for religion myself…I think it is all a business…like movie theaters. But for us as a nation to single out a religion because there exists a radical element within it is nuts.
Why don’t we then also concentrate on the Christian religious fanatics that are hurting our country? They are only steps away from strapping bombs on to themselves…only their preachers haven’t asked them to.
Sorry for the rant. but I thought it needed to be said.

The intent behind Cordoba House is to promote tolerance.

But nobody bothers to research these things.

Look through the writings on this on places like Religion Dispatches and elsewhere. Don’t call it “rude” when you obviously don’t know what you’re talking about.

Also…

This is something that always bothers me…when people say things like:

“I would like to think that the Muslim world would show me the same tolerance if I opened a gay nightclub in Saudi Arabia.”

I really hope that we can hold ourselves to a higher standard than Saudi Arabia.

Well, some African tribes still practice female genital cutting, so what can we justify doing based on that? We hold ourselves to the highest standards of our own law, constitution and culture.

Mayor Bloomberg said it best. “There is already a Mosque within 4 blocks, there are porno shops all around, fast food places, it’s a vibrant community! It’s New York!” If you’re going to have Freedom, you have to have it for everyone. Not just the things you’re willing to tolerate. You couldn’t build a gay night club in Saudi Arabia, but you sure as hell could build one in America, that’s what makes us different. That’s what Freedom is all about. Do people have a right to protest your Gay Nightclub? Hell, yes, but if you can weather the criticism, God bless ya. And Dave, if you were on stage in that Red White and Blue speedo, I’d come visit you every night. But it proves the point, making a speedo out of the American flag, is also a a fauxpaux according to US Flag ettiquite; “The flag should not be used as part of a costume or athletic uniform or article of clothing, except that a flag patch may be used on the uniform of military personnel, fireman, policeman and members of patriotic organizations.” But I’d defend your right to look HOT!

Let’s be honest, the US Government, under the Bush era, created an “office of Faith based policy” which is really a smoke screen for pushing Christianity and secularism and anti-abortion laws. Government has no business pushing any religion, but it has every business defending every last religions right to worship in peace and freedom. That is what makes America not Saudi Arabia.

So what’s it going to take to convince you, Dave, to move to California and setup that gay club??? 🙂

I love you guys!!!!

I had been drafting that post for over a week and my finaly post was pathetic but I just couldn’t put all my ideas down in one place at one time.

Your comments have been fantastic and much more articulate that I have been.

Thank you guys!!!!

This is not a debate I can have with my day to day friends and being able to share my ideas with you guys it what gets me up in the morning.

You guys are awesome!!!

So who is coming to the opening of my ‘Speedo Only’ Club in Saudi?

Dave

Dave, I’ve never replied to one of your questions, but I take my hat off to all the thoughtful responses above….that’s one of the things I love about this country – the right to express one’s views (call it Freedom of Speech!).

I’m not a native New Yorker, but have lived here for a few years. Even before this country was “formally” established, and for centuries afterward, people have come to this country because of it’s religious tolereance – yes and religious freedom. And I hope we continue to preserve that religious freedome in New York. Thanks to the individuals for the thoughtful comments.

I love the comments by RainbowMoose & apeiron. Like Dave said, I’ve never been able to quite articulate my thoughts on the subject the way that they have either. And I’m an educated man… but my mind was always all over the board and it just never quite came out right. Thanks very much. What they said!

I think that it’s location is close to the ground zero but not on it so no big deal… I more concerned about the stripper clubs and bars that are closer to it. As far as a gay night club in Saudi Arabia, Islam does not allow homosexuality so that’s why it would never work there. On a side note most Muslims are not Arab or Middle Eastern, most of them are Asian

Hunter,

Thanks for taking the time and writing a comment mate!!!

You pointed out the personal battle that I have with this issue – what is appropriate vs freedom of speach.

I’ve gotta side with you and say that I’m on the side of freedom of speach.

Thanks again for your comments.

Dave

I’m a little late on this particular iteration of this debate (though I’ve joined in various others elsewhere), but in brief (or in speedos, perhaps being a more appropriate way to say “short and abbreviated and greatly revealing and possibly enticing” for the present circumstances):

1) Park 51 and Rev. Jones both have a right to build their community centers and burn the Qu’ran respectively, and that right should be defended by law.

2) I think both of them are very stupid and insensitive for doing it, and honestly, of the two Rev. Jones is worse, because book burning is an ignorant person’s response to what is fundamentally an intellectual challenge. Debate the merits (or lack thereof) of a text with words and debate and good arguments, not with flint and tinder and lighters and gasoline.

3) There are reasonable Muslims in the world; there are non-Arab Muslims in the world; there are gay and gay-accepting/affirming Muslims in the world. Unfortunately for them, they’re in the minority, and they’re silent out of fear of the mostly Middle Eastern Muslims who presume to speak for all Muslims, and the violent extremists. If the latter had their way, the reasonable ones, the gay and gay affirming ones would all be killed just as much as any infidel or “Sodomite.”

4) My own religion does not say that Allah doesn’t exist, it simply says that he isn’t what the Muslims say he is, and he isn’t what the “prophet” Mohammed (who was an insecure megalomaniac, amongst other things, who didn’t have the chutzpah to actually stand up for himself, instead hiding all of his insecurities behind his revealed word of Allah) said he is.

5) I encourage all attempts by Muslims to have a “reformation” of sorts in their religion, that questions and critiques parts of the Qu’ran. They are coming under threat from other Muslims for even suggesting this should take place, which suggests to me that there is something deeply wrong with the religion.

6) I do not think that other religions should deal with Muslims who want to hide behind the illusion that Islam is a “religion of peace,” which is not true based on linguistics (the only part of “peace” in the terms Muslim/Islam is “peaceful submission to Allah”), and is not true of the Qu’ran itself, and is certainly not true in terms of what is known with certainty about history. Calling anything that criticizes Islam, or actually asks people to look at history in terms of these matters, “Islamophobic” is the equivalent of calling those who would criticize Holocaust Deniers “Naziphobic.” (And, no, Islam does not equal Nazism; this is only an analogy to illustrate how entirely ridiculous it is to even entertain such fantasies.)

it is really unfortunate that the facts about the “ground zero mosque” have been obfuscated by the media’s clammer for juicy headlines and politicans seeking to garner votes prior to an election.
yes, the U.S. constitution guarantees the right of a religious group to worship unfettered by government interference.
the real question is whether or not the proponents of building the mosque are being genuine when they say the goal was to foster good will.
fact: the shady character who acquired the property with questionable funding was only interested in making a fast buck and would have eagerly “re-sold” the property if someone was willing to pay a ridiculous amount of money to satisfy his greed.
i find it incredulous and famously insensitive that the imam thought the project would not illicit some sort of public pushback. if the true goal was to foster good will, and the proponents of building the mosque had solicited public input, the entire matter could have been successfully ameliorated. their inflexibility and insensitivity call into question their real motivation. what could have been a shining example of interfaith ecumenism is now a festering sore that will not heal quickly nor completely regardless of the outcome.